Robert

This is a transcript of the podcast Yellow Jack Ep. 5

Host: Robert Ouimet
Guest: Michelle Van Beusekom

[00:00:00] Hi, I’m Robert Ouimet, and this is the Yellow Jack podcast.

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[00:00:11 Voice over, Robert] Up until a few weeks ago, the idea of self-isolation, locking herself away from the rest of society was pretty much the stuff of history books or religious fanatics, weirdos or just plain science fiction.

Here we are.

In Canada, anyone returning to the country is now legally required to go into a 14 day self-isolation, and many provinces have instituted the same requirement, albeit voluntarily, for people moving from province to province. That, along with social distancing, is what we are doing to try to slow down, to limit the spread of COVID-19.

I started this podcast out of curiosity. What are people doing when they find themselves having to socially isolate? I mean, yesterday they were going about their lives and now suddenly they have to lock themselves away for 14 days. So I started calling around to find out.

After seeing a post of hers on social media where she referred to her cats as her “quarantine companions”, I called up Michelle van Beusekom. She’s in self-isolation at her home in Montreal.

[00:01:17 Michelle] So, I mean, for me, it’s been such an interesting ride. I was supposed to start or I did start a new job on Monday, March 15.

[00:01:26 Robert] Right. So this is this is your new job at the Documentary Organization of Canada, right?

[00:01:30 Michelle] Yeah. And I was supposed to be in Toronto with the Toronto based organization. And although I’m going to be working from Montreal, the idea was that I would be in Toronto for the first couple of weeks to meet the staff and just find my feet and all of that.

And by the Friday before, it was clear that that probably wasn’t gonna be a good idea. So I decided to stay put in in Montreal and work from home. Then by the Wednesday, my husband Alex and I started thinking about his mom in Brazil and we were seeing that president of Brazil is denying what’s going on. He’s being incredibly irresponsible in terms of the health of the citizens of that country. He is not putting measures into place at his level.

And she’s 80 years old and started to become really worried for her. And it just kind of happened all at once. It’s like we need to get her here.

So we spoke to her on on the Wednesday, March 15th, and said, you know, we think you should really consider coming here. And at first, because she’s getting all of her news from Brazil where this is being downplayed or was at the time, she felt that maybe that was a bit of an overreaction. And she has a dog that she’s extremely attached to, very worried who would take care of her dog. She said, you know, “if it was just me, I would come in a heartbeat. But because of Ginger, I’m going to stay.” And, you know, within a day, it was clear that it was super urgent for her to come. And thankfully, she spoke to a very good friend who was basically crying on the phone and saying, you need to go, you need to go. You can’t stay here. You can’t do that to your son. And so she agreed and we were able to buy a ticket and get her on a plane for Saturday. So that was a week ago yesterday. And. Yeah. So it’s someone who came here from abroad. She is in self-isolation for two week.

[00:03:40 Robert] Right.

[Michelle] And I am also choosing to self isolate during that during that period.
She’s in her own apartment. But yeah, just to be safe, that’s what we’re doing. The whole world has changed for me. Like everyone else.

[00:03:54 Robert ] Well, first of all, let me say, as a member of the community at large, thank you for doing that, because it’s the safest thing to do and the smartest thing to do. And I know it’s it’s a really it’s a big change in your life having to do that. But thank you on behalf of everybody out there, because, you know, it’s an important thing to do and we all have to do our bit.

But isn’t it odd how you can go from one reality to another? It’s like, you know, in the movies , in a science fiction movie, when they set a new world in place, and it takes you like 10 or 15 minutes as you’re watching the movie to adjust your brain to the fact that this is how the new world works. But you do in a movie. But this is real life. Like we’ve had to adjust how our world works almost overnight.

[00:04:32 Michelle] Totally. Totally. I mean, that’s it. Exactly. Like Alex, my husband and I, we were in Puerto Rico for 10 days. We got back like just before everything changed. It was on March 12th. I was in Quebec March 12th. What’s the day that the province came in with, you know, quarantine for people who had been traveling and all kinds of new restrictions and recommendations. But March 11th, the day we travelled, the world was still normal.

So we’re in Puerto Rico with friends having an amazing time. And then we were listening to Democracy Now every day and getting the updates on COVID and hearing about Italy. And we were speculating, my God, it must be so strange. Imagine a whole country on lockdown. Imagine everyone at home. Imagine having to, you know, only have a few people at a time in the grocery store. Like, how does that work? And we couldn’t imagine. We could not imagine that in two weeks we would all be living that way. Here we are. So it’s just surreal. And that which is just three weeks away now, feels like a lifetime ago.

[00:05:39 Robert] I find the time is very…I almost can never tell what day of the week it is because it’s everyday so much as happened last 24 hours.

[00:05:50 Michelle ] One hundred percent. Yet each day is so different. And what you perceive as normal and reasonable behavior shifts so much from day to day.

[00:05:58 Robert] So you’ve always been you know, you and I have known each other for a while. And and before this job you have now with the Documentary Organization of Canada, you worked at the National Film Board of Canada. Before that, you worked at the CBC. You’re a media person. You’ve worked with media. You’ve always worked with people all over the world. So you’ve worked remotely with people always. But it’s a little different when you’re locked into your house and you’re having to work remotely with people. And that’s the only option you have. How is that? How are you finding that?

[00:06:27] I’m finding so far so good because I’ve always worked for like national organizations. And yes, you said worked with people right across the country and right across the world. It’s just always been a big part of my day. Being on, you know, Skype at the time or conference calls before that, you know, for sure having the human contact with the people that you work most closely with. Is it’s different. It’s strange, but at least for me, I feel like I’ve I’ve slipped into it remarkably easy. And I guess because a significant number of my relationships were always kind of played out in that way. I haven’t found it that hard. I’m loving Zoom, I must say. We did a industry webinar on Thursday with 360 people and I was so nervous it was going to collapse and it worked beautifully. So, so far for me at least, that hasn’t been the strangest thing that I felt. OK.

[00:07:30] So that’s sort of the kind of, you know, almost normal work. But what are you finding the weirdest or the hardest transition in terms of the shift? Is it just not being able to go out and see people or?

[00:07:42] Yeah. And I mean, you know, a hard and emotional one for me is my parents who are both in long term care.

Oh, I didn’t think I was very emotional. And, you know, they’re in lockdown in Ontario.

Normally, I would go I would go visit them quite frequently. Right. And they have a good quality of life there. There’s a huge volunteer community and a lot of visitors and family who come in regularly. And, you know, for all the right and obvious reasons, that’s not possible anymore. So they’re in lockdown. And I feel lucky in that fortunately, they’re both on the same floor.

[00:08:27] Up until very recently, my mom was on the first floor with Alzheimer’s dementia residents and my dad was on the second floor for people who have more physical limitations. And just serendipitously, my mom got moved to the second floor with my dad about a week before all of this happened. And thank God, because if that didn’t happen, he would not be able to visit her. We have someone that you know, that we pay twice a day. She’s become a very close family friend to visit with my mom. My mom adores her and just misses her terribly. And there’s so many people at that place like this one woman, Chris, she is there every single day with her husband, Bert. You know, who can no longer communicate and is in the chair. But, you know, he communicates by squeezing her hand and with his eyes. And, you know, I think of poor Bert and Chris isn’t there. And there’s no way that he can understand why she is there. And that’s just heartbreaking.

[00:09:25 Robert] Yeah. Yeah. You know, my parents are also in the same situation in Manitoba. And fortunately, they’re together and there’s no movement in and out of those facilities at all. So they’re they’re locked down into their facility. And that exchange of, you know, visitors just doesn’t happen. But as you say, in a way, you know, they’re also probably in the safest environment that is possible at the moment, except maybe in your house.

[00:09:50 Michelle] Oh, for sure. And I think maybe it’s. I mean, in their case, their needs are so elevated that we wouldn’t be able to do for them all the things that need. Be done, so that’s not even an option. What I do worry about and I’ve heard this from other people as well, is, you know, we all know and I’m I’m sure it’s it’s the case with your folks as well. Is all of those places across the country, they’re staffed by such a wonderful and caring people, or at least that’s the case in the facility, which, again, thank God it’s it’s not for profit and not private, but they’re understaffed.

They’re understaffed because they don’t get enough support from government. So on my mum’s floor, which is, you know, it’s it’s Alzheimer’s, dementia patients who have very high needs and they only have two personal service workers to, you know, to attend to the needs of people on that entire floor. They depend so much on the family and the volunteers. And it’s my understanding that they haven’t increased the staffing. So I really worry about those people getting burned, tell their immune systems being compromised, them getting sick. They need more support. Like if they don’t have a family and volunteer support, they can’t be expected to do it on their own.

[00:11:07 Robert] Yeah. And you know, and it’s right across the country, these these folks just, you know, jumping in and doing doing this hard work on behalf of all of us

Normally also, I don’t know, maybe not in your new job, but normally you would be also going to festivals and all these kind of events that are part of the film industry. So it’s that sort of. All right. Off the table now for you.

[00:11:28 Michelle] Everything is. Yeah, off the table. I mean, Hot Docs is a huge event on the annual calendar. It’s the world’s second largest documentary film festival, the largest in North America takes place at the end of April, spilling into early May. And that kind of feels like an eternity ago, I guess. That was two, two weeks ago to the day that that was canceled and everything is canceled for the foreseeable future in the industry I work in. You know, documentary shooting with people, that’s off the table. Everything is ground to a halt. Like, it’s just absolutely surreal. The things that are normally part of everyone’s day and calendar are no longer possible.

[00:12:18 Robert] And the organization you work for really is also it’s a it’s it’s an advocate for documentary filmmakers. It’s the voice of documentary producers in Canada.
I guess when you’re when you are kind of back at work in whatever form that is, that’s going to be, I guess number one job is going to be figuring out what how how the industry recovers from this.

[00:12:41 Michelle] Oh, for sure. And I mean, I’m working full time now and it’s been full on. It’s just in a crazy context in which to start in a job, because there’s been none of that. You know, kind of little level little bubble you get for a week to figure things out.

like an immediately organization thrown into into crisis. I won’t get into the details, but some of our financing operational financing has been compromised by coded an entire membership like we represent seven hundred directors and producers and some craftspeople across the country whose livelihood has been thrown into serious jeopardy like documentarians are a precarious crowd at anytime, right? It’s not the lucrative side of the screen sector. People make documentaries not for money. They make them for love because they’re, you know, committed and have stories they want to tell and think they can make a difference in this world. But it’s very, very precarious work always. Right. And now this So people have been totally undercut. People you know, cinematographers, sound people who’ve had their, you know, their year kind of mapped out for them. All of a sudden, they have no work. Production companies, their projects have been ground to a halt. So what’s going to happen? Are they still going to get, you know, kind of draw downs on payments? How do they shift? What are the cash flow scenarios they should be planning for? Is there insurance coverage for things that have been canceled like everyone has been thrown into a major crisis all at once?

[00:14:23 Robert] Yeah. And the other thing that magnifies that is that it’s not just this sector, it’s every sector that’s facing all of the same questions. Right. So now you’ve got, you know, everybody trying to figure these things out.

[00:14:34 Michelle] Yeah, no, exactly. 100 percent. And, you know, my fear is a lot of people, independent arts workers, they you know, they they do this for for love. They don’t do it for money. And it’s really precarious. And for some, this is going to be, you know, the straw that breaks the camel’s back and they might not be able to come back. So that’s a major preoccupation. For me, professionally and also personally, I like how how do we make sure that people are able to come back from this and weather this storm?

Well, you know, otherwise in our creative communities, we’re going to lose a lot of talent.

[00:15:11 Robert] Yeah. I mean, you know, I guess I would say, having known you, that at least if we have someone who’s at the forefront of trying to figure out how to do that, it’s great that you’re there in that job, because if anybody can do it, you can do it.

[Michelle] Thank you.

[Robert] Now, I’m just curious as a as a creative person. I mean, I know in this job you’re the executive director of the organization so you’re not making films and stuff. But, you know, you, anybody who’s interested in documentaries should watch a film that you made. It’s called Capturing Reality and it’s about making documentaries. So I’m saying that as context – as a creative person, does this thing we’re going through now, does it spark ideas for you of films or documentaries that you think would be really interesting to make now that we’re in the middle of us, assuming we can make them?

[00:15:58 Michelle] That’s an interesting question. Of course, in the in the doc community, a lot of people are saying, so when this is all over, is there going to be a big demand, you know, for things that are reflecting on life under COVID, or is everyone going to be so fed up, want tomove on to other things?

But I think for me, like the ideas that are sparking for me and I’d love to see these given different creative treatments in writing, in books and in music performance. And I think it’s happening already is I think I don’t want to sound corny, but I feel like this is like a message from the planet saying, “Hey, humanity, wake up”.

The way you are living is not sustainable. You know, like you live in an ecosystem. You do not live above that ecosystem. And a world that is premised on people and goods traveling back and forth constantly and an economic system that is just here on pumping, pumping, pumping more out of this poor little planet is not sustainable.

And that’s why, you know, these kinds of new viruses like COVID-19 are able to come about and then propagate and spread so quickly. Like, as he said, science fiction, the whole world is locked down. 7 billion people like this is just crazy. It’s unthinkable. And the other thing that makes me think about is, you know, like sometimes people are like our health system is underfunded. Like I would say, you know, the nurses or the PSW in long term care or education is underfunded. And then we hear, well, we just can’t afford it, you know. And when we look at the economic measures that have been put into place globaly the past couple of weeks, well, we can afford it. It’s about choice. Yet for some reason, we haven’t been making the choices that support people. So let’s think about that and think about what kind of world we want and what kind of world we want to come back to. And let’s not come back to exactly the same one we left a couple of weeks ago. And I’d love to see all kinds of artistic, you know, interpretations of those sorts of ideas.

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[00:18:10 Robert] I’m going to wrap up in a sec, but I just wanted to. So you have your cat. So you’ve got cats must love this. There’s people home all the time. Is people to do stuff for them?

[00:18:19 Michelle] Totally. Yeah. They are just like so happy. They’re all over us. And our cats love people. So they’re just. Guess they couldn’t be happier. And they’re endlessly entertaining and they take all of our stress levels down. We watch them and see how they are and how they come from laugh to laugh. Life is in quarantine is definitely better with Cat.

[00:18:41 Robert] Okay, now can I ask you what happened with her dog?

[00:18:44 Michelle] So fortunately, a friend of mine has been really good with animals, was able to come and stay at her place and take care of the dog. And it works better for him also because people in Brazil are starting to move into self-isolation and his house is a bit overcrowded. So it just works better for everyone that now he has a place to stay and the dog has someone in her own environment with him. And he really likes animals. And it’s better for him and his family. So it’s all working out for the best.

[00:19:20 Robert] Nice. Well, that’s. Yeah, OK. Well, that’s fantastic. Michelle, thank you so much. And I hope you and your family and your cats, you’ve got another bit of time to go, and I hope that you manage that. Okay. And then, you know, we’ll see. You may still be in your house after that. You may not be going anywhere. It’s hard to know exactly.

[00:19:35] It is hard to know. And then same to you, Robert. Take care. And it’s been great talking with you.

[00:19:41 Robert] Michelle Van Beusekom,in Montreal.

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[00:19:47] For some links to resources and some photos, including Michelle’s two cats, please visit the Web site. And if you or someone you know is in self-isolation and happy to share that story, you can get in touch with me on the Web site. There’s a form there you can fill out and I’ll get back to you as soon as I can.

That’s on the Web site at www.podcasthouse.ca/yellowjack

I’m Robert. We met. Thanks for listening.

This is a transcript of the podcast Yellow Jack Ep. 4

Host: Robert Ouimet
Guest: Janet Smith

[Music – down for…]

[00:00:02 Voice Over]

Hi, I’m Robert Ouimet and this is the Yellow Jack podcast.

The Yellow jacket is a flag. It’s solid yellow, canary yellow. And back in the day, if you saw it hoisted from a tall ship at anchor, you knew to stay away because the yellow jacket signifies quarantine. Flash forward a few hundred years. And while we’re not hoisting any flags, we are asking some people to self-isolate because of the COVID-19 pandemic. In fact, anyone returning to Canada now from another country is required by law to self isolate. And some provinces are also requesting voluntary self-isolation for people who have flown in from another part of Canada. So with people all over the country locking themselves away for 14 days, I thought some of them might be willing to share their stories of self-isolation.

And that’s what this podcast is about. People like Janet Smith, who lives in a small town in Manitoba, called Onanole.

I reached her by phone.

[00:01:12 Janet] Hi, Robert.

[Robert] How are you doing?

[00:01:15 Janet] I’m, well… I think my husband and I both are feeling like rounding the corner. We got back from Mexico, I think a week ago. It’s kind of a time warp , to be honest, isn’t it? A really interesting trip home, trying to get home from central Mexico where we were touring. And when we got the call there that the Canadian government wanted us home, we hightailed it to Mexico City and had a very difficult time finding flights out. So we finally flew domestically across the country to another to finally San Jose de Cabo, Baja and then found a flight on Swoop direct to Winnipeg.

So we got back a trip, cut our trip short by about 10 days and got home and we were feeling just fine. Obviously, it just went from airport to home and self isolating as per direction. But two days later, maybe a day later, we started feeling the classic symptoms. And so we phoned Health Links, which is our Manitoba start point. And the nurses there did an assessment. And given our travel history and the fact that we were feeling head-achy and feverish and dry cough, etc., they fast forwarded our information to the folks in Brandon, which is an hour away. And they called us the next morning at 8:30 and said, can you be here by 10:20? Which meant we had to jump out of bed and rush to Brandon. You know, in about 15 minutes to get there.

And anyway, it just went smoothly. The tests went smoothly. We got our results back in three days and it tested negative. So, of course, that’s really, really good news. But I’m the better of the two in terms of I’m not as sick. My husband has got a really bad flu. I guess, where I’m looking after him, he’s looking after me when he can. And we’re just we haven’t really found that new normal yet.

[00:03:20 Robert] So you feel like crap, but at least you know, it’s not COVID crap.

[00:03:24 Janet] Yeah. Yeah. I knew I have an upper respiratory history, so that was my worry. But sure, we were young and healthy and we were, you know, kind of hoping that that was on our side in terms of even if it was that. I just have to say that all of the every- everyone has kicked in here like our doctors…all the health care professionals we’ve had any contact with over the phone … testing site. We were just so thrilled and we just felt so confident. You know, you’re so vulnerable in this state. And then when you have people who are saying, OK, come on and wash your hands, put a mask on, we’ve got this. It just does wonders for your sense of safety.

[00:04:09 Robert] Yeah, about. I know. So maybe we should let people know ,Onanole is   where you are, where you live. And that’s really quite a small town. Can you just tell people where it is and the size of it?

[00:04:20 Janet] Yeah. Well, I if I tell too many people, they’ll want to move here because it’s so great. We moved here three years ago from Brandon – So Brandon is  two and half hours west of Winnipeg. We still work there or when we get back to work. We’ll probably be working from home, actually, but that’s where we have been working. I work in mental health and my husband works in for the provincial government in employment and training. But Onanole. Yeah. It’s just outside of Riding Mountain National Park. So an hour north of Brandon. And it’s this little community that I don’t I can even tell you the numbers of people you moved. Like it’s at three years ago. And I don’t know, 300 people. I’m not sure. Just a little town.

[00:05:03 Robert]  Wikipedia says around sixteen hundred.

[Janet] You’re kidding.

[Robert] I was surprised when I read the. So I guess I grew up not very far from there, I grew up on the other side of Riding Mountain Park on the other side of the mountain in Dauphin, and we used to stop in Onanole. Like when you said 300, I thought, that’s probably a lot. But according to Wikipedia…maybe that’s the whole area. The 16 might be the whole area.

[00:05:24 Janet] So of course it, it burst at the seams in the summer because like so many national parks with cottages inside the park. People flock here in the summer. So it really, really grows and has a very busy tourist season. And. But during the winter, you know, fall, winter, spring, it’s pretty quiet. But we just have an amazing group of it’s unlike any small town I’ve ever been to in that it’s very eclectic. You know, people from all over the country who have moved here to work for the park. We have a lot of folks that happen to be like craft people and artists and musicians. And it’s I think of it as kind of an intentional community that people have decided they want to be close tonature. You know, close to community. And so we’ve benefited from that so much coming home. As soon as our neighbours and our friends hear that we were back, you know, like every day there’s something on our doorstep, like a casserole or a pot of soup or, you know, at thermometer. We didn’t have one of those and they might just come by and wave at us through  the window. I guess I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else, honestly.

[00:06:43 Robert] What a nice what a nice picture you’re painting over like kind of a lousy situation. But if you have to be in a lousy situation, sounds like a pretty idealic place to be in.

[00:06:51 Janet] Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, I think that time will tell. Right. They’ve just closed down all the trails in National Park. So, you know, one of our thoughts was once we emerge from our 14 days and we’re symptom free because we can’t be can’t be even out until all of our senses are are over, even though we’ve tested negative. The trails are closed. So you can’t actually go out on them. And many of them are…you’d be the only person on them right now. But there’s this weird thing about not wanting to be seen out. Like at least that’s how we’ve been feeling. We don’t want to add to the fear if it’s out there of people think, well, they just get back from Mexico? Right. Like, you know, I don’t think that would be the case, but we just we’re just being mindful, not only as I think all Canadian, most but most Canadians have been mindful of the perception of others and that the needs of others as well as your own. So while we’re when we feel better, we’ll be desperate to get out into the in the onto the trails and so forth. It’s just it’s all around us. We’ll have to think about what that would be like for other people.

[00:08:07 Robert] IOt’s interesting, as we all venture into this new world in the new rules and the changing rules all the time, how we are going to behave as a society seems to be, you know, adjusting almost daily. So in terms of your support and and, you know, supplies and stuff, is it just people in the community or helping you out and bringing you food, making sure that you’ve got what you need?

[00:08:28 Janet] Yes, it’s pretty much help people in the community, plus our friends and family and Brandon, that has driven up and dropped something literally driven up an hour, dropped something at our doorstep. Waved at us and gone home. Yeah, that’s what’s happening. That’s right. And I know I’m not alone. I know that this is, you know, this group of folks that are helping a lot of people out.

[00:08:53 Robert] So. So I realize that now I’m just doing the math. So you really just found out the other day that you tested negative.

[00:08:59 Janet] We found out yesterday.

[00:09:01 Robert] So so that obviously must be a relief. But you still have the flu, so you feel crappy. Have you? Have you? Are you able to relax at all?

[00:09:11 Janet] You know what?

Because my husband was so sick, like literally. He’s been in bed probably for three, three days. And he was coughing so much that he just couldn’t get any rest. So I feel like I haven’t been busier in a long, long, long time because I was really caring for him and trying to care for myself and connecting with all my friends and family. Have a big circle of friends and family and everybody wanted to check in with me. And I have to work stuff that I’m trying to, you know, sort out and around the edges. And so I’ve been really busy and I have found it because I work in like the area of mental health and and people in crisis. Like, I feel like I’m kind of wired for that kind of go into firefighter mode.

[00:10:04 Robert] I was going to ask you about that because you work for an organization. I think it’s the Manitoba Farm, Rural and Northern Support Services. Yeah. And that’s really a it’s a crisis center. Correct?

[00:10:18 Janet] Yeah. So the parent organization is Klinic, community health. So Klinic. It’s based out of Winnipeg. And we’ve had a branch office and I’ve been the manager of that and Klinic have a whole range of services, including primary health care, counseling and community outreach. So they’re swamped right now and the crisis lines are swamped. And I’m feeling a bit  on the edges because I felt I was only supposed to be getting back from holidays today. So I don’t know how I’m going to be able to be helpful from here. Now, with everything that’s going on and I would like to be helpful and we’ll see how that goes. So you’re in the days to come. But A yeah, I I’ve worked in this in this field for a while. And so my response is to go into firefighter mode, when you’re asking if I can relax and it’s just like, k, we gotta… here’s what you get. Now, the next thing this person is because cetera. So myself personally have a lot of little bit here and there, but not now.

I feel pretty keyed up, if you can tell….

[00:11:35 Robert] I can I can tell you you want to try to do your job, which is help people. Right. This is what you do. This is sort of this is sort of prime time if you’re in the business of helping people who are in crisis.

[Janet]  Right.

[00:11:49 Janet] So you’re kind of helpless when you’re in when your hands are tied. To not be able to do that.

[00:11:54 Robert] I guess it’s going to give you a you know, not by design, but it’s going to give you a certainly a perspective of what it’s like to be on the other end of it.

[00:12:02 Janet] Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, I just I feel like my I know that I’m that I’m I’m ramped up a bit. But that’s, you know, and that’s adrenalin. But I also know I’m fully I have a home, I have food, I have family, I have support, I have love. And there’s a lot of vulnerable people out there that don’t have one or more of those things. And they’re going through that. So that’s those are the folks that we’re you know, we’re usually serving and helping. And, you know, my I feel I really feel for them.

[00:12:38 Robert ] Yeah. And I think most of us you know, those of us who live in cities, we think of crisis intervention lines and crisis centers as urban things, you know, urban issues.

But you’re actually working with people out in rural areas and on farms.

[00:12:51 Robert] Yeah. Yeah, we have been. We have called the Manitoba Farm Rural and Northern Support Services. So essentially anybody knows Manitoba. Half the population or even a little over half live in Winnipeg and the rest live outside of Winnipeg. And while cities like Brandon and Thompson are our cities, they really have a very rural feel to them there. Their economic engine is agriculture. And in the north, of course, mining and etc. So it’s very different. There are lots of differences beyond the perimeter. And so our crisis line has been really dedicated to understanding the realities of living on a farm, living rurally, living in the north.

[00:13:37 Robert] And I guess with this now, you kind of going to have, you know, two fronts to firefight. You know, the the COVID front, but then also the economic front and just the just people getting supplies and being able to manage because they can then do you know, the next town, maybe a few hours away?

[00:13:54] Yes, exactly. Yeah…Well, that’s one of the good things about living rural is we just take it as a given that we rely on one another. It’s not it’s not it’s not unusual. It’s part I mean, because we might have been communing to Brandon, everyday for a job like that. Several times a week, we’ll have a text from a friend saying, hey, can you pick up a can of paoint. Can you, like, you know, get the things that they can’t get up here? So we’re kind of the unofficial courier service. So that’s that’s just normal for us. So this isn’t really a stretch, whereas it might be in a larger center where you don’t know your neighbours or if you know your neighbors. You certainly wouldn’t be relying on them necessarily for this kind of thing. And there is something about like a geographical neighbour, like you’re not necessarily going to have each other over for coffee, but just the fact that they’re two doors away makes it easier to call upon them for something like in our case, do you happen to have a  thermometer? Ya, be there and five, be there in five,you know? Right. Yeah, it’s. To me, it’s interesting times.

[00:15:10 Robert] Well, you know, I you know, as you’re talking, it also is inspiring times. If people are helping each other in and doing that, you know, making an effort to be supportive. I mean, it does give you hope in a world where we’re bombarded with, you know, bad and negative news that people are pulling together and trying to help each other. Make sure we can get through it.

[00:15:27 Janet] I know, I know. I think of it. It’s like this is a pause for the planet. You know, do we really need to go and buy stuff? Do we really need to drive places, do we  really need all those things. I think the thing that’s hardest for people will be the hardest for people. It’s the social distancing because as human beings, we are wired for connection. So we’re reconnecting in lots of creative ways. And that’s pretty neat. You know, I love hearing about all the ways that people are doing that. My son and daughter in law live in Toronto and they’re, you know, talking about how people are coming out on their on their porches and how deejays are creating, you know, these online jam sessions. And, you know, people are getting very, very creative. But as it gets warmer out, particularly in our neck of the woods anyway, we’re going to want to come out of our cocoons. And so we just I think right now we just need to say that’s all we have. We just hope right now. We have to say right now, we’re going to stay home and we are going to connect with people in these creative ways and then we’ll see what happens.

[00:16:38 Robert] You sound pretty chipper for somebody who’s been sick. And and through the stress of trying to get you know, trying to get home alone was probably seriously stressful when you’re trying to get it. Yeah. So you sound pretty chipper. I can tell you’re busting to get going back to work. I would just, you know, let me give you some advice as a neighbor from far away. OK. You bet. When you know, before you go to work, you you need to a couple of days where you’re just going to be able to relax and make sure that your husband is feeling well and you’re feeling well. You’ve had a chance to, you know, charge up because you’re going to be busy.

[00:17:09] Yeah. Yes, we are going to be busy out for sure. And my, ah, former clinical director and my very best friend says :”Tere’s a lot to do. So we better go slow”.

[00:17:22] Right. I think that’s probably the best advice I’ve heard all week.

[00:17:26] It’s good, isn’t it? It is good. Lots to do. So we got to go slow.

[00:17:30] Janet thank you so much for getting out of your sickbed to talk to me and all the best to your husband. And I hope you feel. Thank you.

[00:17:37 Janet] And thank you for the opportunity. I hope that I’m sure you talked to so many, so many others with with both challenges and positivity it’s both this and that, isn’t it….

[00:17:50 Robert] It’s interesting when you’re locked in your house for a few days, the things that you actually start to think about, it’s actually striking to me that we forget how busy our lives are and that we don’t really take a minute to go. Oh, let me think about things. We’re just going. We’re doing it we’re constantly at it. And so suddenly, when you’re confined, that’s a very interesting thing seems to happen that people are, you know, thinking about stuff. And they’re also obviously you’re surveying the landscape a bit differently because you’re stuck in your house.

[00:18:19 Janet] Right. And you hopefully are instead of just texting people, you’re actually picking up the phone. I can’t make a list every day of who I want to call. And I don’t I hate to work on a crisis line or manage a crisis line. And I really don’t like the phone, but I’ve made a point of saying, OK, today I’m going to call my my, you know, 90 some year old 94. I think she is a year old aunt in a personal care home in Brandon. And I try to keep it like narrow it, but great actually reaching out by phone or video conferencing. I think it’s really important in that at least for me, I’ve decided that’s one thing I can do. And limiting my social media intake has been it’s really important, I think, and just trusting science, trusting, you know, what we know and our government and what they know and limiting your news sources if you very trusted one.

[00:19:25 Robert] And the best advice I’ve heard is “We’ve got a lot to do so….

[00:19:28 Janet] We better go slow.  [laughs]

[00:19:33 Robert] Thank you so much, Janet.

[Janet] OK, Robert.

[Music up then down for]

[00:19:39] Janet Smith recovering from the flu. Not COVID-19. Fortunately, at her home in Onanole, Manitoba.

If you head over to the web site, you’ll find links to some of the things we talked about, along with some other resources and a full transcript of this podcast.

If you or someone you know is in self-isolation and would be happy to share their story, get in touch with me on the website. There’s a form there that you can fill out and I’ll get back to you as quickly as I can.

That’s on the website www.podcasthouse.ca/yellowjack

I’m Robert Ouimet in Vancouver. Thanks for listening.

This is a trancript of the podcast Yellow Jack Ep. 3

Host: Robert Ouimet
Guest: Amy Amantea

[Music]

Hi, I’m Robert Ouimet.

And this is Episode 3 of the Yellow Jack podcast.
On this podcast, I’m talking to people who are in self-isolation because of the COVID-19 pandemic. They’re shutting themselves away for 14 days just to ensure that they are clear of the virus. Basically, they’re housebound, quietly doing their thing to control the spread of the virus.

As you can imagine, it’s a bit of a challenge. You’ve got to get supplies. You have to avoid contact. Basically, you’re removing yourself from the rest of the world. But if you have any kind of disability, self-isolation presents a whole new range of challenges.

To find out just exactly what that means. I called up Amy Amantea. She’s an actor and artist based in Vancouver. She’s also an accessibility consultant and advocate for the disability community. And currently she is in self-isolation at her home in North Vancouver.

[00:01:04] [phone ringing – Robert humming while he waits for the phone to pick up]

[Amy] Hello, Amy speaking.

[Robert] Hi, Amy, it’s Robert.

[Amu] Good morning, Robert. How are you?

[Robert] I’m good. More importantly, How are you?

[Amy] I’m hanging in there. You know, what choice have I got?

[00:01:14 Robert] Exactly. How did you end up in self-isolation? What was your circumstance?

[00:01:19 Amy] I think a part of it was that the world around me was being canceled left, right and center, right. Which of course, meant that I had no options to work outside of the home. So that in and of itself sort of forces you to reexamine your life and go, well, I guess maybe I should stay at home. And the other thing was, is that because I live with Type 1 diabetes and I have for 30, 32 years, I have a compromised immune system. And so, you know, medical people in my life were saying, yeah, you know, I think I think you should strongly consider this. And that was you know, I’ve been in self-isolation for 10 days now. So that was really before they were pushing it really hard. So I sort of decided that I would just I would just do it. You know, the time is right. I’ll just do it.

[00:02:08 Robert] So is your plan to stay self isolated until things clear up or how’s that gonna work for you?

[00:02:13 Amy] Well, I think after the next four days, which would be my my two week period, I would reexamine what’s happening. Now, I do know that in my life, I do a lot of things in the disability community, in the arts community. All of that is completely shut down.

And so, you know, I’m not going to be anytime soon going to rehearsals outside of, you know, the four walls of my home. So I will likely be staying inside just like by consequence alone, you know? The other thing I do is I review movies for the blind since I’m also legally blind. So there’s no movie theaters that are open for me to go do that kind of stuff. So I think sort of by, you know, by inherent circumstance, I’ll end up being isolated or quarantined or whatever, whatever word we’re using these days until things start to come back to some sense of normality.

You know, I have great family supports that are making sure that I’ve got the supplies and the groceries that I need. And so I don’t have a need to even leave the home for anything unless something emergent were to happen.

[00:03:20 Robert] Right. And you’re kind of in an extraordinary situation in that you are, as you mentioned, you are blind. So when you are actually not confined to your space, you’re out in the world. You need to be able to touch things and feel things to see what’s going on.
.

[00:03:34 Amy] It’s part of my world is to experience it with my hands. And the other thing, too, is it’s very difficult for me to know what proximity I am and to other people.

And, you know, a lot of times I will bump into somebody or I just won’t be able to maintain a distance that, you know, they’re comfortable with. Yeah, sure. So, yeah. So you’re right. So part of it is, is just about the fact that I touch more things than than most people touch. And that also comes with a higher a higher risk factor.

[00:04:04 Robert] Have you thought or have you talked to other people in the community who have challenges like you do, who are faced with this new world order we’re living in? And what kind of situations does that present for them?

[00:04:18 Amy] Yeah, I mean, I’m pretty connected with with the blind community, with the disability community. And so there’s been lots of phone calls back and forth, check ins making sure people are doing okay. We are also utilizing the good old zoom and the Skype and online platforms that are available to us. The blind community is used to doing that anyways, because actually in our community there is a certain level of social isolation already. Then you add a pandemic on top of that and it’s compounded exponentially. And so we’re already in a space where we end up checking in on people in our community. And so this is just sort of heightened, I guess heightened the need to make sure that seniors with sight loss are getting what they need and other people in the blind community are either connecting through these other online platforms. I mean, in my own life, a lot of what I was doing out in the world was just the transition to my computer. So while I’m at home, in my walls of my home, I am still rather chained to my desk and my computer because certain things have stopped. But other things have gone full force. And then, of course, all the extra curricular check-ins stuff has added to my plate of things to do just because it’s the right thing to do. But it is like having a full time job on top of a full time job, because now we’re we’re in a new world where we have to make sure that people are doing the best that they can. And if they’re not, how, how how do I help them from my four walls?

[00:05:46 Robert] Right. You’re already in a world where you have to go to extraordinary circumstances or you have to take extraordinary measures in order just to, you know, walk through life. And now you’ve got this on top of it. That’s another layer of complexity.

[00:05:58 Amy] Yeah. It’s certainly. Additional challenges to a person’s plate and everybody’s circumstance is different. I know some of my friends with who are wheelchair users, for example, one of them said to me the other day, well, now my wheelchair is not working. And so I can’t even get somebody to come into my house to fix my wheelchair. And this person uses a wheelchair in their home. And so, you know that the able bodied world looks at that and goes, what does it matter? You’re in your home anyways? You don’t need you don’t need to go anywhere. What do you need the wheelchair for?

[00:06:32] But the person who uses a wheelchair, that’s an extension of their body. And so if you need that to make sure you can move from your bed to your kitchen to your bathroom, then you are essentially a prisoner in your own home because you don’t have the things that you need. That’s not something I can help her with personally. And that’s that. So that weighs on my mind, knowing that this individual is going through something that I I can’t help her with. And there are no companies that are happy to walk into somebody’s home and do the repairs because of the social distancing stuff. So it’s you know, everybody’s got a different level of challenge that they’re trying to meet in these new extraordinary circumstances. And when I hear some of them, I feel quite I feel quite privileged to know that I’m in a safe place. And I know that I have the things that I need. And I know that, you know, a family member with a car is is not far away. Should I need something dropped off or picked up or whatever. So I’m not to have pardon the pun, I’m not blind to that.

[00:07:33 Robert] Right. I know you’re also on the board at Reelwheels, and you’re in the middle of a production, Realwheels is a theater company. And you were in the middle of a production which you now had to sort of change. How did that work?

[00:07:43 Amy] Yeah, I mean, Realwheels has been a theater company is very close to my heart. And so I’m the vice president’s on their board and they specialize in disability. Arts is about engaging their audiences, sharing the lived experience of disability. And they do that in a variety of ways. But in this particular circumstance, we are are putting together a community project, and that is for people with disabilities who identify as being artists or art lovers who want to participate in the devising of a show from scratch. So the last show we did was three years ago with Comedy on Wheels, and it was a fantastic, fantastic sold out. Three night show was great. So, of course, everybody is geared up in anticipation for this year’s show because it’s been three years since, you know, we’ve challenged ourselves to do something. This year’s theme was music. So we gathered musicians with disabilities and poets and artists and people writing prose and just a whole group of really exciting, talented people. And, you know, it was I guess we started kind of need. Yeah. Mid-February, I would say. We were meeting a G.F. Strong, very accessible space for all of us. And then, of course, G.F. Strong closed their doors. And of course, by proxy, the rest of us didn’t have a rehearsal space. And of course, it’s the right thing to do. So we’re not saying oh darn, we don’t have a rehearsal space. But the challenge was how do we meet as a community and still continue to work on creating this piece.

[00:09:17 Robert] So it’s not just being able to connect everybody on the phone or through Zoom or they can talk. You’re actually in the creative mode. You’re you’re brainstorming your, you know, ad libbing, you’re improvising. You’re trying stuff right together. And typically you do that together into a room.

[00:09:32 Amy] Yeah, that’s right. This is a it’s a very intimate process because you’re sharing stories that are very personal. And of course, not every story gets used in production and sometimes they get changed or manipulated and somebody likes the idea and they take it on. But it’s a very, very intimate, very personal, very.

[00:09:51] I don’t wanna use the word private, because at the end of the day, you know, we share these stories from sort of an anonymous or community perspective…

[Robert] But there’s some sensitivity there as you’re exploring.

[Amy}Yeah. Yeah. There’s a certain there’s a certain level of gravitas that’s needed and trust that’s needed with the group and that usually requires people to be in person. So we did do several in-person rehearsals and then we did one at rehearsal right before we decided to move to the online platform, which was our social distancing rehearsal, which was interesting because instead of sitting in our traditional circle where we’re almost hip to hip with each other, we were, you know, two, two meters apart from each other in this huge circle around the room. And it it didn’t really work either, because you just you just didn’t feel connected with the group. And so we have turned to to an online platform with the help of the Centre for Digital Media, which turns out that they were working on a project anyways with this production before we even knew that cozied was a thing.

[00:10:54 Robert] So so this is this is kind of a weird little connection because on the podcast episode before this one. Richard Smith, who runs that center, was the guest. And he’s in self-isolation on Bowen Island,

[Amy] six degrees of separation. Isn’t that interesting?

[00:11:07 Robert] Anyway, so I interrupted you. Why did they put together for you?

[00:11:12 Amy] So the students of the CDM were were working with us from day one in order to see about creating an online platform so that people with disabilities, for example, who were not able to leave their homes could participate in, you know, in the creation process for creating content. Or let’s say you live in Prince George and you want to participate in disability theatre, and that’s not available in your community. So we had already thought about this being a really exciting opportunity to connect people with disabilities who don’t get out or who can’t get out or who are in different, you know, areas of proximity. And so we had had certain people in the rehearsal space where many of us were were in person and then a few people were in remotely experimenting this platform. And then, of course, the secondary part of the platform was archiving all of the stuff that we were talking about, all the written pieces, you know, taping stuff, so that if, for example, I missed a Saturday rehearsal, I could go back. Right. And I could spend time on the platform and go through what had happened at the day so that I didn’t miss anything. And so we already had this, you know, in place to an extent where it was working fairly well. And then we had to transition. The biggest part of it was how do we do this now with a large group of people instead of a small group of people. And that just really takes some trial and error. We had rehearsal Wednesday night and Saturday afternoon and you just make it work. We had an open call. We were all muted. And what is happening were little groups of people were meeting, but we were all able to listen in on the call and then, you know, the schedule would change, “Oh it’s Amy’s turn at 3:15 to talk with the director”. OK, I get a half hour block to talk about my pieces with the director. And then but we all we all maintained on the call muting ourselves so that we could understand what was happening in the in the virtual space. Right. And knowing what was happening in the virtual space. But at the same time, because I’m sure you can understand, you know, when you’ve got 20 people on a call, there is no time and no real tolerance for. Oh, I have a suggestion. Oh, no, no. It’s my turn. I have a suggestion. Oh, no, it’s me over here. I have a suggestion.

[00:13:19 Robert] Yeah, it’s really difficult when you got that many people in that even in a regular space, because you can sort of police it a bit more when you’re there in person. You know, there’s eye contact and people can there’s body language that you go, oh, maybe I should shut up now because there’s twelve people acting. As you say, it’s very difficult in the online when you’re all on the on the screen. There’s like twenty little thumbnail pictures of people. It’s really tricky.

[00:13:39 Amy] That’s right. And so we’re just we’re just doing the trial and error thing to figure out how this works. But so far it’s been really, really creative. We’ve we’ve come together with a lot of great content. So we’re not seeing it as a detriment. We’re seeing it as you know, there are few kinks that we need to work out as we move forward. And we’re gonna continue with this process.

Now, at the end of the day, our show dates were May 28, 29, 30, and we have no idea whether our venue, which is the Roundhouse, will be open or not. Right. So we’re gonna continue with the process one, because the community wants it. It’s also part of community engagement because most of these people are also isolated. And so it’s a thing to do. Yeah. And there’s value in that, too.

[00:14:23 Robert] Well, I also think that as we’re sort of grinding to a halt in a variety of ways because of the circumstance, I think it’s really important for people to remember that, you know, we will move on and we will continue to do stuff. We just need to figure out how to do it in this new environment. So that’s right. So in a way, this was like this is quite serendipitous that you were playing with this technology before that you actually had to.

[00:14:44] Yeah, the stars did align for us, it is quite interesting when you think about the progression of how how this whole covered thing had come about, because, of course, to engage somebody like the Centre for Digital Media. This goes back, you know, six, eight months, right. Where you have to apply for grants and have initial conversations. And how is this going to work? And in consultation with people disabilities on making the platform accessible. And so there’s all these pieces that had to go into place before you could even bring a tripod with an iPad on it on day one to have somebody remote in to the session. So, you know that obviously this was all in place before before we even knew there was any kind of virus on the horizon.

[00:15:24 Robert] I mean, it’s kind of great in a way that you’re at the forefront of experimenting with figuring out how to manage this. Right. Your you know, I know it’s frustrating and probably really scary in some ways, but in a way, it’s also wow, you’re pushing the boundaries now and trying to figure out how do we manage in this new environment.

[00:15:42 Amy] Yeah, it’s I think it’s in some ways it’s going to end up being a bit of a legacy for Realwheels theatre, this because the timing is so apropos. But it’s something that’s been thought about from the community perspective, from the company’s perspective, from their board’s perspective, in terms of how we engage the community of people with disabilities. And is it unfair to leave people with disabilities who cannot get out of their homes, for whatever reason, out of the arts and how we make that inclusive for everybody, even if his show doesn’t culminate in the end of that process in itself, has has great value.

[00:16:21 Robert] I agree. And I think, though, too, that, you know, this idea of it culminating in a presentation on stage. You know, I think over the next few months we’re going to be redefining what on-stage actually is.

[00:16:30 Amy] I already know some theatre companies who were who were livestreaming some of their some of their content. And it’s also something that the disability community has been thinking about, because, again, if you’re one of those people who who doesn’t or can’t get out of their homes, you’re not going to any stage productions because they’re not accessible to you. And, you know, the I guess the the barriers to entry for that are certainly there’s a cost involved in in setting up the equipment in a space that’s appropriate to livestream a live performance. But then, you know, how do you keep people from recording that, or do you need to? And it’s not you know, most people who attended theater live know that the experience is not the same. So it doesn’t, you know, will it translate through that medium? And I think all of those questions are answerable and navigable. And the person who is on the other end of the screen who might be participating in watching a live streamed live stage production. We’ll just have to understand those pieces that, yes, you can’t record.

[00:17:36] And yes, you may not be getting the same experience that somebody in the seat would, but you’re able to, you know, watch your best friend on stage. Or however that work.

[00:17:45 Robert] Yeah, I think maybe we’re talking about – is there going to be a development of a new art form?

[Amy] Very possible. 

[Robert] Because, you know, I don’t know. Is it possible that that in the near future, the foreseeable future, we’re not all going to be getting in a theater together? I mean, theaters are built to sit, you know, side by side. I’m touching the person next to me, every time I go to a theater or I go to a show or I go to a concert or anywhere, I go out, I’m even in restaurants. Right. So if the concept of that is off the table for however long, I’m pretty sure some, you know, ingenious, smart artists and technologists and and creators will come up with some alternatives to that so that we can still somehow collectively share an experience.

[00:18:29 Amy] Yeah, well, it’s a phrase where there’s a will, there’s a way people who are artists to their core are going to start to get bored truly because there aren’t any things really happening and they’re going to turn their attention to how I can how I can make an online artists platform. What does that look like? How do we do that? And that will fill the gap. And then it will it will spill over the gap because people will discover that this is kind of cool. And how do we develop this further? And I think you’re right. I think we’re going to be looking at a whole new genre, a whole new aesthetic for arts, which is really quite exciting when you think about it.

[00:19:08 Robert] Yeah. I mean, if you you know, once you get past that, well, my God, you know, it’s the end of the world. Yeah. But when you start to get past that fear and and that’s a natural fear, I’m afraid of it every day because I hear new stuff every day. But then, you know, I think we have to also remember that these are things that are being put in front of us and we need to figure out a way to work through them and work around them and figure out how we’re going to now operate in this new world. And, you know, this is across every sector. It’s not – we’re talking about the arts – but if you go to downtown Vancouver, there’s nobody in the offices – those are all regular business people who now suddenly have found themselves in a world where they can’t meet with their clients, they can’t meet with each other. But how are they going to operate? They need to figure this out as well.

[00:19:47 my] You know, they keep saying we’re all in this together. And I keep I keep trying to drink that Kool-Aid as opposed to the other Kool-Aid that’s being served.

[00:19:55 Robert] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Amy, thank you so much. And good luck with your isolation.

[Amy] And thanks, Robert.

[Robert] You know, as you count down the days, you can sort of think about, you know, well, maybe, you know, in fifteen in five or seven or eight days, I’ll be in to do X and we’ll see what that X turns out to be in five or seven days.

[00:20:12 Amy] Yeah. I mean, who knows how much longer this could possibly move forward in our lives. I don’t think any of us really know what the outcome is going to be and how long it’s going to take. But you know, I can expect from the disability perspective, one of the things that I could that I would share just as food for thought for people who are also in this environment is that, you know, I’ve been talking to a lot of people with disabilities, a lot of people in the blind community, and remembering that these people are typically transit users, so don’t have access to vehicles and rely on things like grocery deliveries. And when they go online to get their groceries and it’s a four or five week wait for a delivery spot, because there are people who are are using those spots who are able bodied in good health. Have vehicles. And so for them to go and pick up groceries is not a big deal. You do have to make space for other people that that can’t do that. And the hoarding situation has gotten so bad. You know, when people who live on disability cheques get their cheque at the end of the month, by the time they get their cheque, everything is gone. And so we do a disservice to our most vulnerable people by getting caught up in the whole whole paranoia of everything. So take a breath. You know, only get what you need to get. We need to respect that there are there are people and 25 percent of Canadians identify with disability so that, you know, there’s a whole quarter of our population of people who may not be able to get out. I mean, you know, people, disabilities, they’re talking about the fact that, Save-on-Foods is opened an hour earlier just for seniors and people with disabilities. And you’re like, well, great, I’m the quadriplegic who has no health care worker to come in and get me dressed in the morning. And if I did, they wouldn’t be coming in at 4:00 in the morning so I could get out for eight hours.

[Robert] Right. Right.

[Amy] So, you know, that person needs to be able to have their groceries delivered to their door. So allow them space to do that. And that’s, you know, those those of us that have privilege to be able to do the opposite. You know, take advantage of that privilege and, you know, to help your neighbors, that kind of thing. So that’s how we get through this together, Robert. That’s my part, my parting words.

[00:22:22 Robert] It’s a really, really good point is I think a lot of people just don’t think about that at all.

[00:22:26 Amy] I don’t think I would have thought about it until it was on my radar either now.

[00:22:30] Thank you so much, Amy.

[Amy] Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Bye.

[00:22:35 Voice over] Amy Amantea who has another four days of self-isolation to go from her home in North Vancouver.

Head over to the Web site. There you’ll find some show notes. A full transcript of this podcast and other resources that you might find helpful. And if you or someone you know is in self-isolation and you’d like to share your story, you’ll find a form there to get in touch with me.

That’s on the Web site at www.podcasthouse.ca/YellowJack.

I’m Robert Ouimet. Thanks for listening.

This is a transcript of the podcast Yellow Jack Ep. 2
Host: Robert Ouimet
Guest: Dr. Richard Smith

[00:00:05]
Hi, I’m Robert Ouimet, and this is episode two of the Yellow Jack podcast where you’ll meet people who have voluntarily gone in to self-isolation because of the COVID-19 worldwide pandemic. 

In Canada, anyone who’s come in from another country or thinks they may have been exposed to COVID-19, are being asked to self-isolate for 14 days. That means no contact with others. Primarily, you’re confined to the house. There’s some leeway for going outside on a solitary stroll or to walk the dog. But basically you’re supposed to stay inside, isolated from other people.

[00:00:39] The idea is that if you’re inside isolated for 14 days and there’s no symptoms of the virus, then you’re good to go back out into the world of social distancing.

[00:00:48] On this episode, Dr. Richard Smith. Richard is a professor in the communications department at Simon Fraser University. He’s also the director of the Masters of Digital Media Program at the Centre for Digital Media in Vancouver. The Centre for Digital Media, the CDM, is a collaboration between SFU, the University of British Columbia. Emily Carr University of Art and Design and the BC Institute of Technology. So Richard is usually at the CDM campus on Great Northern Way of Vancouver. But for the last week, he’s been in self-isolation at his home on Bowen Island. Hi, Richard

[00:01:23 Richard] Hi, Robert. How are you?

[Robert] More importantly, how are you?

[00:01:28] Pretty good, actually. I mean, it’s upsetting or challenging times, let’s say. But my personal situation is quite pleasant, really. I like being at home and I’ve been at home a week now and so far so good.

[00:01:42 Robert] So can you just tell us how you ended up having to self-isolate? Were you traveling or were you at an event or what happened?

[00:01:49 Richard] Yeah, I was actually in France. I was a visiting professor at a University in France. And. And, you know, I went there I was going there for a long time and I didn’t really check into the situation in France. I mean, the virus existed, but it wasn’t that big a deal at the time. We went and my wife went with me. And just while we were there, things, you know, almost as soon as we got there, we realized that France is in a lot worse situation than we had ever known. And it got worse by the day. It didn’t have a real material effect on us while we were in France, but we could see it coming. And so we decided to come back and we did that before Canadians were ordered back. But actually, I think we were in the air when that order came in. And so we were home on the 13th of March. And the advice even then was to self-isolate. Right.. We got a pamphlet as we got off the plane. But we followed the instructions went straight home. Been here ever since. People who live on Bowen Island tend to have a fair bit of supplies. Anyway, it’s just the nature of island life. So we were pretty well situated. And my brother, who’d been looking after the house, kind of left it even more stocked up than you would otherwise. And then, you know, we have neighbors, too. And my neighbor across the street actually got some milk and stuff like that. So we’re in pretty good shape here.

[00:03:26 Robert] Is that a bird in the background?

[Richard] Yes, I have a parrot. What’s unfortunately I know.

[Robert] What’s the parrot’s name?

[Richard] Cecil. named after my grandfather. An African gray. So he learns new things and repeats them. And if we’re lucky, he won’t be too intrusive while I’m doing this call that part of the joy of working at home is all the pet interaction. So if I was younger, maybe children interaction.

[00:03:54 Robert] I think it’s great having him there. And I hope that, you know, in the next week or so, while you’re still in self-isolation, he learns how to say COVID.

[00:04:01] Yeah, he is. We always have to be careful, what we say around the parrot.

[00:04:08] So now you because of your work, you’re pretty used to working remotely and, you know, dealing with people all over the world in different time zones and using video conferencing and all that kind of stuff. But now that you’re actually forced to sort of stay at home and not be able to, you know, go out and interact. What are you finding the most challenging?

[00:04:25] I do a fair bit of remote collaboration and have people all over the world that I interact with, but I do so from typically from an office. I actually commute. I work in the city. And so I have people that I walk past. And my commute is really long from Bowen Island into downtown every day. So and most of that trip is with people that I know or you know, casually. So I actually have a pretty busy casual social life or commuting social life in my say because I use public transit. So. What I miss is all those kind of not the non work interaction.

[00:05:09 Robert] And it is actually kind of surprising. You don’t actually realize it when you’re not restricted, but you don’t realize how much of that interaction actually goes on every day.

[00:05:19] Yeah. Yeah. From, you know, just paying for bus fare and, you know, acknowledging people and or, you know, all those little things. And then in the office environment, we you know, we we all work on one hallway and we we actually have a little coffee station and a big table beside it. And people just hang out there, you know, they were getting their coffee. And so they. The time that. That kind of those punctuation of points, I guess, are are missing. Actually, this week we we we created a, you know, basically an artificial “ no agenda” meeting, which was just grab a coffee and join us on this channel. And so we just hung out together for about half an hour. And it was it was kind of it was it was necessary.

[00:06:11 Robert] That’s a really good idea, though. I think a lot of people now are, whether they’re isolated or not. There are a lot of people are almost everyone I know is having to work from home. And the idea of having just a meeting just to catch up and not have an agenda, I think that’s brilliant.

[00:06:27] Yeah, and it was nice, too, because just like in an office. You know, if you have set meetings with set agendas and everybody’s remote, you know, did you turn your mike on and all that stuff, then you tend to get a very linear flow of things. And when you have a coffee klatch, we call the Academics in Pajamas having talking about Corona’s or something like that. We gave it a funny name and we just hung out. But we also got a whole array of different people from the person at the front desk to, you know, faculty members to staff members. And so we we didn’t have any – we tried not to make it all about the coronavirus – but we didn’t avoid the elephant in the room either. We just kind of, you know, as they say, shot the shit .

[00:07:19] What a great idea. I really like it. I mean it. And I guess to you’re kind of in a weird situation because you’re also having to manage – figuring out how you’re going to deal with your students and your faculty and the whole organization around the Centre for Digital Media. So you kind of got two layers of stuff to sort out. if in quite the transition.

[00:07:37 Richard] It’s been quite the transition. And you can imagine like I’ve actually been in the digital media space for a long, long time. And part of that has been looking at online and remote teaching options and, you know, how can we use the Internet for teaching? And so we’ve been working on that since the 90s. And yet, you know, not that much has changed fundamentally. University education, it’s face to face seminars, lectures and so on. Well, my university just basically last week mandated no, we’re all going online all the time now. And we had four days to make the change. And so something that’s been evolving for over 25 years and really not making a huge you know, it’s kind of like a dent in the status quo. Suddenly, this marginal part of our lives is transitioned and everybody has to do it. And actually, to be honest it’s gone really well. I think part of it is students are well used to doing all kinds of other things online. So and then I think just making it absolutely mandatory for everyone, no exceptions, then there’s no moment – like nobody can whine and complain and dodge the issue or whatever.

[00:08:58 Robert] You can’t sit back and hope it’ll pass you by. It’s just the reality now. But, you know, it is interesting. You and I met in that in the mid-90’s and I was doing work at CBC. And you’re doing work. Get us a few in the communications department. And we sort of bonded just because we were both really interested on the digital side. And you were right. You know, I just spent all this week in meetings with, you know, various people, some of their clients, some of them are coworkers. And the amount of time spent just trying to get everybody to connect is crazy, you know? You know, there is your mike on, is your mike off? Why aren’t you connecting all that kind of stuff? Like, we haven’t really moved very far. Like, we have great tools. There’s lots of options. There are there’s you know, I’m not saying they don’t exist. They’re around, but they’re still sort of not really easy to use for regular people.

[00:09:44 Richard] Yeah. You know, I think a lot of it is is skill and being just being used to things. An example I might give it; I don’t know if you remember when you were learning to drive. But it is absolutely overwhelming. Right. You have to remember, you know, the different pedals in my day three pedal, you know, the blinkers, the lights – looking all. And and you just you go into overload and you try and you try and think about everything in kind of, you know, the way you were taught. And then you don’t have any automatic muscle memory of all the various things like, oh, I’m going to turn, I’m going put on my blinkers. I’m going to check these directions like the things we do automatically. So that muscle memory or that autonomic function has not yet built up, for online teaching on online meetings. But it will.

[00:10:36 Robert] I agree. Like, actually, I should rephrase what I said because I think the tools are actually pretty good, like when you think about the off the shelf, free for use tools that we have. They’re all really, really good. I guess the thing is they’re not super intuitive and because they’re combining kind of consumer equipment into a different environment. There’s kind of a few little hiccups that come along the way. And if you’re not used to, you know, changing settings on your computer, that is where things fall apart. Right. I mean, and that’s where the beauty of things like Facebook live and all these instant messaging services that people use. They are pretty goof proof. You know, you press a button and it starts

[00:11:10 Richard ] Yah, and the little edge pieces. I think there’s two things we can do. One is – I circulated to all of my staff and my students – a best practices. One was from Blue Jeans, I think, and another was from the big teleconferencing and video conferring companies, publish best practices with tips and tricks. Yeah. And I circulated two of those those documents to everybody. The second thing I did is this. I got actually way back in the early 90s when we did at cross-Canada Collaborative Research Project. And some of the people were, you know, that as you can imagine, the technology was very rudimentary. And so one of the things we did is we started every single meeting with a best practices guide. Right. And and, you know, if you were part of the project for more than a few months, you’ve got kind of, oh, and do we have to go through this again? The thing is, people come and go and you always need reminding you don’t sit with the sun right behind your head. Don’t forget to plug in your mike and don’t forget to have headphones and all this stuff. Yeah. And I think given my students the advice that they’re masters students in digital media, this is our chance to excel. This is our chance to become not just adequate, but the best possible users of the technology, because we’re going to be those leaders. We have to show leadership on it and challenge yourself and each other to not just get it done, but do really well.

[00:12:40] I’m curious, though, with your background and your expertise, just in terms of the whole communication around COVID in the way that we’re having to adjust as a society to how we speak to each other. You know, my wife, for instance, is an actor, so of course, she has no work. But also, her community is now trying to figure out, well, how do we how do we do our craft in this world that may last two weeks or it may last two years or it may last…it may be a complete change in the way we work, you know, as a as a as a, you know, an academic who’s thought about this stuff for a long, long time. Have any sort of ideas started to percolate for you around how this might change, how we work as a community?

[00:13:21] Yeah, I think for one thing, there’s no way that this is going to go back to some sort of former state of normalcy. Right. And so absolutely. We need to make those adaptations. And that’s where we’re experimenting with that. The other thing is human beings are incredibly adaptable. That’s you know, that’s why we occupy virtually every square inch of the whole planet despite how different it is. So we you know, we will be able to adapt. And if it’s if it’s hard to imagine what that adaptation will look like. Yeah, I can I can commiserate. But just I say to people, just get out there and start figuring it out. And that may not be right the first time. But, you know, we will figure it out. And and who knows? Some of those things might be even better.

[00:14:14 Robert] Well, I think it’s exciting in some ways when you get past the fear of the unknown and the fear just over the physical risk, like the idea that we’re kind of being propelled now into a new way of working and thinking and communicating, for me that’s super exciting.

[00:14:28] Yeah. Yeah. And and it sounds, you know, it’s a creative moment. And I sent a message out to my students, you know, the that we’re we’re in a sense, we’re kind of like pioneers where we’re figuring stuff out like if you came to a new place and you had to figure everything out. You know, that’s that’s an exciting time. And, you know, we’ll get to tell the stories. You know, when once people have figured this out and long ago forgotten about the transition will be all the ones that can tell the stories. Oh, you wouldn’t believe, you know, we can be that cranky old grandfather. Oh, yeah. So and also, we should probably take comfort, you know, many of us Canadians have had – if you’re above a certain age, you either know someone or have been exposed to stories about, you know, the olden days. And, you know, they those people I endured hardships as well and they survived and thrived. So I think we can do it.

[00:15:28 Robert] Yeah. And I think that, you know, there’s – I mean, I think right now there’s just so many fronts that are being assaulted on. So there’s the, you know, just the physical fear of getting sick. There’s the physical fear if you’re older. You know, maybe getting fatally sick. But there’s also sort of the economic fear, there’s the you know, am I going to be able to work fear. There’s the how do I just get everyday normal stuff done, fears. So right now, we’re kind of being we’re inundated. As you say, that analogy of learning how to drive, I think is really is really good because we’re just doing a lot of us are just overwhelmed with so much stuff. We can’t see our way past it.

[00:16:05 Richard] Sort of paralyzing it is.

[00:16:07 Robert] I wonder, too, I think part of it is that, you know, we’ve always had in our you know, in our communities the artists or the seekers or the people that are pushing the boundaries and trying new things. And and they’ve always experimented in this stuff.
And in a way kind of been on the edges of it, not really necessarily, you know, at the forefront in the community. But now, you know, every everybody and every walk of life in every type of job is being forced to figure out how to do this stuff. You know, how to have a meeting with, you know, six people when you’re in the and this isn’t your field. You don’t work with software. So it’s really interesting to watch how we’re having to confront these things. And I think this idea of boldly stepping forward and not being afraid of it, I think is important and really the only way we’re going to get through it.

[00:16:57 Richard] And I think we really do have to embrace the idea that this is not going to go away no matter. This is how big a problem as humanity ever faces from time to time. And we have to step into it and and start solving the problems and, you know, give yourself a bit of…it won’t be perfect, of course. But I think it’s really important is, you know, it’s very normal and natural to feel anxious about things. And, you know, people do. If we didn’t feel anxious about things, we wouldn’t say, you know, we wouldn’t be safe and we wouldn’t we wouldn’t survive. So people do get anxious. But people also put that anxiety aside and get down and do their work, whatever it is. And that’s also very natural. So it isn’t you know, if you aren’t sitting around worrying or refreshing your Internet connection, but actually you’re doing some work that’s actually totally normal. And I encourage my students, OK. Get yourself informed in whatever way that is. I’m advising people to, you know, if you want to learn new things. Check with the Canada.ca page and then let it go after that. But do the rest of your life from being reasonably well-informed, you know, abide by the provincial health officer and all that stuff. But if it’s if it’s not your job to seek out information and circulate it to others, then don’t make that your job. Get on with what your job is, whatever it looks like. And, you know, I have students who, you know, they have a job, which is to learn new things and to deliver on their projects and all their stuff. And education is going to be enormously important in the coming years. So we have to get good at it and do it. And everybody else is going to have to adapt, find a new job. And I think you’re right on the money to pinpoint the artists and the other sort of creative people because they’re the ones we’re going to figure out new ways. And if nothing else help people feel better along the way.

[00:19:01 Robert] Yeah, I think that’s that’s I think that’s very true. Hey, are you are you actually getting to do anything that’s kind of relaxing and like self-isolation, distraction stuff?

[00:19:14 Richard] Well, we live almost in the country and we have a big yard so, and my wife loves to garden and landscape. So, yeah, any minute that I’m not actually on a call, I’m on call to move a rock or did a hole or whatever. So there’s some of that. And then I’ve actually taken up a thing called crazy golf. Well I like golf or with a frisbee.

[00:19:35] Yeah. And all the Valdy was the big proponent of Frisbee golf. Oh yeah.

[00:19:41] Well there’s a new Frisbee golf place on Bowen . And so and it’s surprising you can actually do it. Social distancing. Maybe not when you’re in isolation, but you know, you don’t have to get close to anybody that you don’t pick up each other’s Frisbees or whatever. So I’m going to do a bit of that. And, you know, walk the dog. One of my friends pointed out that the dog leash is about six feet long. So they can pet your dog, but they don’t get any closer than that. And that’s kind of a nice thing to do. And, you know, the dogs appreciate it. This is, you know, obviously the best of times for dogs. They think that – what the hell – this is great.

[00:20:16 Robert] Well, I I walk through my neighborhood, you know, I’ve walked through my neighborhood all the time, but I’m doing it even more. So now it’s I’m not going venturing much further than my neighborhood. And I was thinking yesterday that the dogs will be very fit, but people will be very fit in. The gardens this year are going to be awesome.

[00:20:32 Richard] Right. We have some great gardens.

[00:20:34 Robert] Hey, what’s the first thing you’re going to do when you’re – you’ve got another seven days. What are you going to do after your seven days? You’re going go out and like run around the streets or, you got a plan?

[00:20:43 Richard] You know, one of the. I’m going to do if I’m going to go to school. I.
I think my students you know, it’s one thing for me, you know. I mean, I guess, you know, I’m an older person now. And I I I’ve been through a few ups and downs in my life and I guess three major economic upheaval. So it’s one thing for me to be a bit sanguine about, you know, it’s going to work out even if you know, who knows. But it’s different when you’re younger and especially so. I think my students are more worried than they let on. And if I can just be at school and talk to them from a distance, that that might be helpful. And I just want to see some people doing their normal stuff. And that’ll be interesting. But I just want to get out and do kind of regular stuff.

[00:21:35 Robert] Have a fabulous rest of your isolation.

[00:21:38] Thanks, Robert. It’s great to talk to you. And I hope this reaches out to a good number of people. I think what you’ve been doing here all these years is really important.

[00:21:50 Robert] Thanks .

[00:21:52] Richard Smith from Simon Fraser University and the Centre for Digital Media in Vancouver.

If you head over to the Web site, there are some links there you’ll find handy. Also, a photo of Richard before and during isolation, along with Cecil the Parrot.

That’s at www.podcasthouse.ca , and your comments are welcome and encouraged.

If you or someone you know is stuck in social isolation and you’d like to share your story, please get in touch. Love to have you on the podcast to find a form at podcasthouse.ca/yellowjack , just fill it out and I’ll get back to you as quick as I can.

That’s it for this episode. Thank you for listening. And we’ll talk again soon.